Program#L7—“The Theological Adventures of Johnny Lukewarm andPastor Loophole:  Faith vs. Works”


Radio Show Transcript, 2001, Persuade TheWorld Ministries, Gordon James Klingenschmitt, Servant.  Copyingand distribution (without editing) is highly encouraged. 


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Opening introduction by MarkMcWilliams…

Welcome and thank you for joining this radiobroadcast of Persuade The World Ministries.  You’reabout to hear our radio production of the book written and taughtby Gordon James Klingenschmitt, entitled “License To Sin,The Number One Reason America Is Losing Its MoralFoundation.”  If you call us in the next hour,we’ll mail you a free cassette tape of today’sbroadcast, which you can copy and give to your friends.  Justcall our toll-free phone number:  866-Obey-God.  That’stoll free, 1-866-O-B-E-Y-G-O-D.  Gordon JamesKlingenschmitt is a graduate of the United States Air ForceAcademy, and a seminary graduate of Regent University, holdingboth M.B.A. and Master of Divinity degrees.  He’s alsothe founder and servant of Persuade The World Ministries, a501(c3) tax-exempt religious non-profit corporation in ColoradoSprings, dedicated to persuading individuals in America andthroughout the world to forsake their sins and submit theirhearts and minds to the loving rulership of our Lord, JesusChrist.  And now with today’s teaching, here is GordonJames Klingenschmitt. 


Teaching by Gordon JamesKlingenschmitt…

Thanks Mark.  Today we continue ourmini-drama entitled “The Theological Adventures of JohnnyLukewarm and Pastor Loophole.”  You may remember ourcharacters, Johnny Lukewarm, and Pastor Loophole from our lastbroadcast.  But before we re-introduce these two characters,let’s read again from 2nd Timothy chapter 3. “For the time will come when men will not put up withsound doctrine.  Instead, to suit their own desires, theywill gather around them a great number of teachers tosay what their itching ears want to hear.  Theywill turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside tomyths.”  People often turn to counselors who tellthem what their itching ears want to hear.  As is the casewith our character, Johnny Lukewarm, who comes into PastorLoophole’s office to get advice…

           (Lower) “Please have a seat, Johnny.  What seems to bebothering you today?” 

           Johnny’s brow furrows with concern.  (Higher)“Pastor Loophole, I’m very upset about this particularpassage of scripture.  It seems as though God is commandingme to do something I really don’t want to do.  Do Ireally have to repent, and stop sinning, and obey God?  Oris there some other alternative? 

           (Lower) “Why, certainly there is, Johnny, you just relax. I can offer you dozens of alternatives, and give you very logicalreasons why you don’t have to obey God.” 

           (Higher) “Oh, thank goodness.  For a minute there, Ithought I’d actually have to change my behavior and obeyGod!”  Johnny breathes a sigh of relief.  He sitsforward eagerly, with his itching ears searching for some way ofescape from the Holy Spirit’s conviction.  But theSpirit of God is grieved away, and He slowly withdraws hisconviction from Johnny’s life. 

(Start) Nowlet’s continue on Loophole #4, as Pastor Loophole re-definesthe words salvation, grace, faith and works: 

           (Lower) “Johnny, it says here in Ephesians chapter two,‘For it is by grace you have been saved,through faith—and this not fromyourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works,so that no one can boast.’ [1]  Now you’ve gotto understand the proper meaning of these words, Johnny.  Solisten carefully to my definitions.  Salvation, Grace,Faith, and Works.  If you just re-define these four words,you’ll never have to give up your favorite sins.” 

(Lower) Nowlet’s re-define the word faith.  Faith just meansmental assent, or believing or trusting in certain statements offact.  This is the only requirement of salvation: justbelieve that Jesus Christ died on the cross to forgive your sins. If you personally and sincerely trust in this fact alone, Johnny,something magical happens.  It becomes real.  You’reforgiven of your sins, even while you continue to enjoy thosesins!  You don’t have to submit to the Lordship ofJesus Christ, or to let Him rule your heart—just believeyou’re forgiven and that makes it true.  If you justbelieve one single fact, that Jesus forgives your sins, then youdon’t have to repent or forsake those sins.  Nothingelse is required.  We’re saved by faith alone, Johnny. Faith alone.” 


TIME OUT !!  Let’s look at thescriptures everybody, and analyze Pastor Loophole’s advice. Let’s rightly divide the word of truth, and separate thetruth from the lies in the advice given by Pastor Loophole. First, I want to acknowledge the true part.  It’s truethat “It is by grace you have been saved,through faith—and this not fromyourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works,so that no one can boast.” [2]  Nobody can argueagainst that scripture. That’s the Biblical description ofhow God saves us. 

           But the lie is that faith means mental assent to certain facts. But here’s the truth: Genuine faith doesn’t just meanyou believe you’re forgiven, genuine faith meanswhole-hearted submission to the Lordship of Jesus Christ.  That’ssaving faith. 

           Most Christians know that we’re saved bygrace…through faith.[3]  And most Christians also remember John3:16— “whoever believes in Him shall not perish buthave eternal life.”  And the Bible says Believein the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household.

But what exactlydoes that mean, to believe in the Lord Jesus?  Does it meanyou believe God exists, or that Jesus was a real person and agood moral teacher and even the Son of God?  Well justbelieving in Jesus like that isn’t enough to get you saved,because even the demons believe that—and shudder.[4] Even the devil believes Jesus is the Son of God, but thatdoesn’t mean the devil is saved and going to heaven. 

So what does itmean to believe in Jesus?  Does it mean you believe He diedon the cross to pay the penalty for your personal sins?  Orthat He rose from the dead?  What if you even verballyconfess him as Lord with your own lips?  Is that enough toget you saved?  Jesus says in Matthew 7, ‘Many willsay to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord’.....Then I willtell them plainly, ‘I never knew you.  Away from me,you evildoers!’ [5]  Think about that for a minute.  Manypeople will even call Jesus their Lord, and believe He died onthe cross to forgive their sins, but even they will be cast intohell.  So we’ve really got to ask the question again,what does it mean to believe in the Lord Jesus?

           Well, let’s look at somebody who had more faith in Christthan anybody in all of Israel.  Do you remember the RomanCenturion in Matthew chapter 8?  Jesus said nobody in Israelhad as much faith as that one Roman Centurion.  Jesus saidhis faith was genuine.  So what did his faith look like? Do you remember? The centurion said, “Lord, I do notdeserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word,and my servant will be healed.  For I myself am a man underauthority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one,‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ andhe comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he doesit.”  When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and saidto those following him, “I tell you the truth, Ihave not found anyone in Israel with such great faith[6] 

           Now Jesus defined genuine faith here.  Did you get it? Look closer.  Faith means recognizing the authority of thespeaker, and submitting to Him.  The centurion submittedhimself to Christ’s authority.  In effect, he said,“Jesus, you have authority over all things.  You rankso highly, that everybody must obey you, so I also submit to yourauthority.”  This centurion had genuine faith, thegreatest faith in all Israel.  That’s the differencebetween those who are saved and those who are going to hell. Saved people submit to the authority of Jesus Christ.  Butunsaved people refuse to do that.  Even the devil believesin God, but he won’t submit to God’s authority.  Thedevil has faith, but not saving faith, because he won’t letGod rule his heart.  So you listening on the radio, let meask you a question.  Do you believe in God, while you refuseto let God rule your heart?  If God doesn’t rule yourheart, you don’t have saving faith.  You’re notsaved.  And when God throws the devil into hell, God willalso throw you into hell.  But it’s not too late. Invite God to come and rule your heart, right now.  Submityourself to Christ’s authority, like the Roman Centuriondid.  He had the greatest faith in all of Israel, because helet Jesus rule his heart. 

           Now to everybody out there listening, let me give two goodreasons why you oughtta submit your heart to Christ’sauthority.  1.) He Loves You.  and 2.) He’ssmarter than you.  Think about that for a second.  Whydoes Jesus want you to submit yourself to his authority?  BecauseHe loves you and because he’s smarter than you.

           When a mom and dad send their preschoolers outside, they say“Don’t play in the street!”  But why are momand dad so demanding?  Are they mean-spirited, selfish,controlling people?  No!  They’re just concernedfor their kids safety.  1.) They love ‘em.  and2.) They’re smarter than the preschoolers are.  Theyknow it might be dangerous to play in the street.  Now inthe same way, when God says— “Don’t be sexuallyimmoral.  Don’t worship false Gods.  Keep holy theSabbath day.”—why’s God so demanding?  Well,he’s looking out for your safety.  Submit yourself toGod.  God loves you and he’s smarter than you are. 

           Now the Apostle James wrote about two kinds of faith:  LivingFaith, and Dead Faith.  So Johnny Lukewarm, if you’relistening out there, I agree you have faith, but is your faithalive or is it dead? 

           Let’s read from James 2:  What good is it, mybrothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Cansuch faith save him?…faith by itself, if it is notaccompanied by action, is dead…You believe that there is oneGod. Good! Even the demons believe that— andshudder…faith without works is dead…Was not Abraham ourfather justified by works…faith wrought with his works, andby works was faith made perfect…a person is justified bywhat he does and not by faith alone…As the body without thespirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.[7]

So let me ask you,is your faith dead, or is it alive?  You know if your faithis dead, it can never save you from hell? 

Now from thesescriptures, let’s properly define the word Believe: Tobelieve in the Lord Jesus means “to submit your heart to therulership of the Lord Jesus” or “To bow your knee tothe authority of the Lord Jesus” or “To worship theLord Jesus with all your heart and mind and soul”  That’swhat it means to believe in the Lord Jesus. 

Submission toChrist’s authority is the only difference between those whotruly “believe in Christ” and are saved and going toheaven, and those who claim to “believe in Christ” butare not saved and are not going to heaven. 

You know, if yourefuse to submit your heart to Christ’s rulership,you’re an unbeliever.  You don’t believe in theLord Jesus, because you don’t want Him to rule your heart. If this is you, don’t call yourself a Christian.  Faithmeans submission to Christ’s authority.  But ifyou’ve never invited Jesus to come and rule your heart,you’re still an unbeliever.  If Christ is not yourLord, then he’s not your Savior either.  If Christ isnot your Lord, you have no saving faith. 

           Let’s pray together.  Would you to just stop whatyou’re doing for a moment, and pray with me to God?  Justpray these words to God with me.  “Father in heaven, Iconfess that my faith has been hollow, and shallow, andworthless, because I haven’t submitted my heart to yourauthority.  I haven’t really believed in you, because Ihaven’t invited you to come and rule my heart.  But Iwant to change that now.  I repent, Lord, and I submit myheart to your authority.  Come and rule my heart now, LordJesus, and take over every part of my life.  I’m not myown boss anymore.  Lord Jesus, you are my boss from now on. I submit to your rulership right now.  I receive yourforgiveness of my sins, and I thank you in Jesus name,Amen.”  Did you just pray with me?  If you prayedwith me, say Amen.  Go ahead and say it out loud.  Amen. Now if you just said Amen, I want you to write to me and get acopy of this book you’re hearing me teach from.  Here’sMark with that information. 


Middle segment by Mark McWilliams…

Thanks Gordon.  He’ll be back injust a moment.  But first, do you know somebody who needs tohear today’s message?  If you call our toll-free numberin the next hour, 866-Obey-God, we’ll mail you a freecassette tape of today’s broadcast, which you can copy andgive to your friends.  All our tapes are copyable and free,but please remember we need your donations to stay on the air andto give away these free tapes.  So please pray and obey,then send us your best possible donation, after you receive yourfree cassette.  (Gordon:  Hey time out!  Ifit’s your first time calling us, no donation is required! Just call us!)  Our toll free number is 866-Obey-God,that’s 1-866-O-B-E-Y-G-O-D.  And please specifyyou’re requesting today’s program.  Do you believeAmerica needs to hear these messages?  If so, then we needyou to sponsor us, by joining the Persuader’s Club with amonthly pledge of just $15.  If you join thePersuader’s Club, we’ll also send you an autographedcopy of Gordon’s book that you’ve been hearing.  Justvisit our web-site at  Or call us inthe next hour at 866-Obey-God.  Right now, let’s returnto Gordon James Klingenschmitt. 


Teaching continued by Gordon JamesKlingenschmitt…

Thanks, Mark. Now let’s continue with Loophole #4, as Pastor Loopholere-defines the words salvation, grace, faith and works: 

(Lower) Johnny,let’s re-define the word works.  This is veryimportant.  We’re not saved by good works, Johnny. In fact, things like repentance and holiness and love andsubmission to God’s authority, those are just good works,Johnny.  And good works are optional when it comes tosalvation.  So you don’t have to repent, or be holy,and you can still go to heaven!  You don’t have to loveGod or submit to God’s authority, and God still forgivesyou, even while you continue to enjoy your sins.  After all,we’re not saved by good works, Johnny, we’re saved byfaith alone.  Just believe you’re forgiven, faithalone.” 


TIME OUT !!  Let’s go back to thescriptures everybody, and analyze Pastor Loophole’s advice. Let’s rightly divide the word of truth, and separate thetruth from the lies in the advice given by Pastor Loophole. Again, I want to acknowledge the true part.  It’s truethat “It is by grace you have been saved,through faith—and this not fromyourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works,so that no one can boast.” [8]  I love thatscripture.  That’s the Biblical description of how Godsaves us. 

           But the lie is that holiness is the same as good works, or lovingGod is the same as good works, or submitting your heart to theauthority of Christ is the same as good works.  That’sa lie!  But here’s the truth to replace that lies:Holiness and submission and love come from your heart, not fromyour hands.  Holiness and submission and love are not thesame as good works, they’re elements of genuine faith. If your heart is full of sincere faith, it’ll also be fullof holiness and full of love toward God and you’ll lovesubmitting to God’s rulership.  These things are notgood works, they’re elements of genuine faith in Christ!!  

           Let me repeat that we’re not saved through our good works.The Bible warns us that Israel, who pursued a law ofrighteousness, has not attained it.  Whynot? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were byworks.[9]  And again, theBible says there is a remnant chosen by grace.  And if bygrace, then it is no longer by works; if itwere, grace would no longer be grace.[10]  The Bible teaches we’re saved bygrace through faith, not by our good works. 

           We are saved when God influences our hearts toward voluntarysubmission to His rulership.  God’s gracious influencesaves us and separates us from our deadly sins.  Now thegood works that you do with your hands result from that, but ifyour heart isn’t changed and you don’t love God,pursuing good works is meaningless.  May no theologicalcritic ever accuse me of preaching salvation by works. 

           No, I preach salvation by faith.  Submitting your heart toGod’s rulership is the same as genuine faith.  Repentanceand holiness of heart are the same as genuine faith.  LovingGod with all your heart is the same as genuine faith.  Ifyou don’t repent and if your heart isn’t holy and youdon’t submit to God’s rulership over your heart and youdon’t love God with your heart, mind, soul and strength, youdon’t have genuine faith.  This isn’t preachingsalvation by works, it’s preaching salvation by faith! 

The Bible says, Everythingthat does not come from faith is sin[11](which is the opposite of holiness).  So holiness andfaith go hand in hand, and they both start with wholeheartedrepentance.  So cleanse your heart.  Believe.  Submit. Be holy.  Be clean. 

The Bible says, withoutfaith, it is impossible to please God.[12]  It also says, withoutholiness, no one will see the Lord.[13]  Now how can anyone claim to have savingfaith and go to heaven, without holiness?  Fight the goodfight, holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some haverejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith.[14] Johnny, is your conscience clear, or are you shipwreckingyour faith?  Again, what’s the foundation ofChristianity?  Is it faith, or repentance, or both?  Thereforelet us leave the elementary teachings…not laying again thefoundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and offaith in God…[15]

           Holiness, sinlessness, repentance, submission to authority, andfaith.  These words all mean the same thing.  Unholiness,unrepentance, sin, rebellion to authority, and unbelief.  Thesewords also mean basically the same thing.  Johnny, withoutholiness, you have no saving faith.  Faith without holinessis not really faith at all.  

Did you know savingfaith is also the same thing as loving God with all your heart? 

           Jesus gave us two commandments: Love God and Love Your Neighbor.[16]  Holiness and faith require ourheartfelt obedience to these two commands.  If faith withoutworks is dead, then faith without love is evenless—it’s nothing.  The Bible says  if Ihave a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I amnothing.[17] Did you know love helps atone for our sins?  It says inProverbs, through love and faithfulness sin is atonedfor…[18] 

           Faith can’t express itself without love.  The Biblesays The only thing that counts is faith expressing itselfthrough love.[19] 

Again, for youladies, what are the requirements of salvation?  The Biblesays in 1 Tim 2, women will be saved…if they continue infaith, love and holiness.[20]

           So am I saying love a requirement for salvation?  No, TheBible is.  We know that we have passed from death tolife, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not loveremains in death.[21] 

           Again, how do you know if you’re really saved and reallybeen born of God?  The Bible says, Everyone who loves hasbeen born of God and knows God.  Whoever does not love doesnot know God.[22] So if you think you’re saved by faith, but you don’tlove God and neighbor, your faith isn’t real, and itcan’t save you from hell.  Love isn’t optional,like good works.  Love is an element of genuine faith. Saving Faith requires that you love God and neighbor.  

While we’renot saved by good works; your heart change can’t be genuineif good works don’t result.  The first requirement foreternal salvation is that you change your heart and repent. When your heart’s genuinely changed, good works willnaturally follow.  If you’ve really repented, it’seasy to tell because your behavior changes too.  But if yourheart never really changed, you can tell right away because yourdeeds remain evil too.  This is how we knowwho the children of God are and who the children of the devilare: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God;nor is anyone who does not love his brother.[23]   This is how we know you’renot saved, Johnny Lukewarm, if you’re out there listening. Because we can see your lack of good works.  But God knowseven sooner, because he sees your unchanged heart.  Manlooks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at [your]heart.[24] 

Your lack of goodworks proves that your heart never really changed.  Yourcontinual sin, seldom if ever broken by repentance, isconclusive, legally binding evidence that you’ve never beenborn again.  The Bible says, No one who is born of Godwill continue to sin…he cannot go on sinning, because he hasbeen born of God. [25]

Your evil works and sinful deeds prove youare not a child of God.

           Let’s stop and pray about this.  If you can hear myvoice, stop what you’re doing and let’s get this rightbefore God.  Pray these words along with me to God.  Goahead and repeat after me.  “Father in heaven, Iconfess that my heart has never really changed.  It’sobvious by my lack of good works, Lord, but the real problem isthat I need to get my heart right with you.  Lord, I confessthat I have not lived a holy life, and I haven’t loved youwith all my heart.  I am so sorry for that, Lord.  Irepent, right now.  I change the desires of my heart to makeyou my number one priority.  I choose to love you Lord, evenmore than I love my own self.  God, come and rule my heart,I pray in Jesus powerful name.  Amen.” 

           Did you pray with me just now?  If you prayed with me, wouldyou say Amen?  Go ahead, say it out loud.  Amen, LordJesus.  Some of you are receiving a physical healing in yourbody right now, as God’s loving rulership takes over in yourheart.  I hope you’ll write to us and tell us aboutthat.  But if you said Amen just now, whoever you are, Iwant you to write to us and get a copy of this book you’rehearing me teach from.  I’ve been very fortunate andblessed to have this book read and endorsed by people like C.Peter Wagner, Tony Campolo, Jon Mark Ruthven who was mysystematic theology professor, Pastors Ted Haggard and FloydMcClung, Joy Dawson and Bill Hamon.  So you know it’strustworthy.  In our book and in future broadcasts,we’ll answer the questions you may have about eternalsecurity or eternal salvation.  And you’ll hear moretheological adventures of Johnny Lukewarm and Pastor Loophole. So I hope you’ll write us tune in again next time.  NowI love you, and I care about you.  So here’s Mark withmore information.


Closing trailer by Mark McWilliams… 

Thanks Gordon, and thanks everybody forlistening. Do you know somebody who needs to hear today’smessage?  If you call our toll-free number in the next hour,866-Obey-God, we’ll mail you a free cassette tape oftoday’s broadcast, which you can copy and give to yourfriends. All our tapes are copyable and free, but please rememberthat we need your donations to stay on the air and to give awaythese free tapes.  So please pray and obey God about howmuch these teachings are worth to you, and return to us your bestpossible gift after you receive your free cassette.  (Gordon: Hey time out!  If it’s your first time contacting us,no donation is required!  Just call us!)  Our toll freenumber is 866-Obey-God, that’s 1-866-O-B-E-Y-G-O-D,and please specify you’re requesting today’s program. Now do you believe America needs to hear these messages?  Ifso, we’re specifically asking you to join thePersuader’s Club, and to sponsor this radio broadcast with amonthly pledge of just $15.  If you join thePersuader’s Club as a monthly partner, we’ll send youan autographed copy of the book you’ve been hearing, writtenand taught by Gordon James Klingenschmitt, entitled,“License To Sin, The Number One Reason America Is Losing ItsMoral Foundation.”  Just visit our web-site  That’s It’s the monthly donations of our Persuader’s Clubpartners who keep this program on the air.  Now if you havecomments or questions about today’s broadcast, you can emailus at  “,” Or you canwrite to us.  Or you can always call us toll free, at866-Obey-God.  And if you remember, please tell us the callsign of the radio station you’re listening to.  May Godbless you, and thank you for supporting Persuade The WorldMinistries.  Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, wepersuade men. 


<Manymore transcripts and free MP3 radio shows CLICK HERE>




[1] Ephesians 2:8-9 (NIV)

[2] Ephesians 2:8-9 (NIV)

[3] Ephesians 2:8-9 (NIV)

[4] James 2:19 (NIV)

[5] Matthew 7:22-23 (NIV)

[6] Matt 8:5-13 (NIV)

[7] (NIV and KJV)

[8] Ephesians 2:8-9 (NIV)

[9] Romans 9:31-32 (NIV)

[10] Romans 11:5-6 (NIV)

[11] Romans 14:23 (NIV)

[12] Hebrews 11:6 (NIV)

[13] Hebrews 12:14 (NIV)

[14] 1 Tim 1:18-19 (NIV)

[15] Heb 6:1 (NIV)

[16] See Luke 10:25-28

[17] 1 Cor 13:2 (NIV)

[18] Prov 16:6 (NIV)

[19] Galatians 5:6 (NIV)

[20] 1 Tim 2:15 (NIV)

[21] 1 John 3:14 (NIV)

[22] 1 John 4:7-8 (NIV)

[23] 1 John 3:10 (NIV)

[24] 1 Sam 16:7 (NIV)

[25] 1 John 3:9 (NIV)