Program#L16—“The Theological Adventures of Johnny Lukewarm andPastor Loophole:  Eternal Security Doctrine”

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Radio Show Transcript, 2001, Persuade TheWorld Ministries, Gordon James Klingenschmitt, Servant.  Copyingand distribution (without editing) is highly encouraged. 

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<Manymore transcripts and free MP3 radio shows CLICK HERE>

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Opening introduction by MarkMcWilliams…

Welcome and thank you for joining this radiobroadcast of Persuade The World Ministries.  You’reabout to hear our radio production of the book written and taughtby Gordon James Klingenschmitt, entitled “License To Sin,The Number One Reason America Is Losing Its MoralFoundation.”  If you call us in the next hour,we’ll mail you a free cassette tape of today’sbroadcast, which you can copy and give to your friends.  Justcall our toll-free phone number:  866-Obey-God.  That’stoll free, 1-866-O-B-E-Y-G-O-D.  Gordon James Klingenschmittis a graduate of the United States Air Force Academy, and aseminary graduate of Regent University, holding both M.B.A. andMaster of Divinity degrees.  He’s also the founder andservant of Persuade The World Ministries, a 501(c3) tax-exemptreligious non-profit corporation in Colorado Springs, dedicatedto persuading individuals in America and throughout the world toforsake their sins and submit their hearts and minds to theloving rulership of our Lord, Jesus Christ.  And now withtoday’s teaching, here is Gordon James Klingenschmitt. 

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Teaching by Gordon James Klingenschmitt

ThanksMark.  Today we continue our mini-drama entitled “TheTheological Adventures of Johnny Lukewarm and PastorLoophole.”  You may remember our characters, JohnnyLukewarm, and Pastor Loophole from our last broadcast. 

           (Lower) “Please have a seat, Johnny.  What seems to bebothering you today?” 

           Johnny’s brow furrows with concern.  (Higher)“Pastor Loophole, I’m very upset about this particularpassage of scripture.  It seems as though God is commandingme to do something I really don’t want to do.  Do Ireally have to repent, and stop sinning, and obey God?  Oris there some other alternative? 

           (Lower) “Why, certainly there is, Johnny, you just relax. I can offer you dozens of alternatives, and give you very logicalreasons why you don’t have to obey God.” 

           (Higher) “Oh, thank goodness.  For a minute there, Ithought I’d actually have to change my behavior and obeyGod!”  Johnny breathes a sigh of relief.  He sitsforward eagerly, with his itching ears searching for some way ofescape from the Holy Spirit’s conviction.  But theSpirit of God is grieved away, and He slowly withdraws hisconviction from Johnny’s life. 

 

(Start) Nowlet’s continue on with our very last Loophole, entitled“Once Saved, Always Saved.”  So here’s PastorLoophole again. 

(Lower)“Once you’re saved, you’re always saved, no matterhow much you sin.” says Pastor Loophole.  “Youdon’t have to repent and persevere in holiness until theend.  Just believe Jesus forgives you, and that makes ittrue.  And once you’re saved, Johnny, you can neverlose your salvation, no matter how much you sin.  You cansin as much as you want, and you’ll never lose yoursalvation.  The wages of sin isn’t death, it’sjust less jewels in your heavenly crown.” 

(Higher)“Wow, that’s great,” says Johnny Lukewarm.  “Ialmost thought I’d have to be holy to make it into heaven. But now I know that God forgives me even while I continue toenjoy my sins, and I can’t ever lose my salvation.  Ifeel very, very safe.  Thanks Pastor Loophole, I feel muchmore secure now.”

 

TIMEOUT!  Let’s look at the scriptures everybody, andrightly divide the word of truth.  Let’s separate thetruth from the lies in the advice given by Pastor Loophole. First, I want to acknowledge the true part.  It’s truethat when believers listen to the shepherd’s voice andfollow him, no one can snatch them out of his hand.  But thelie is that you don’t have to be holy, and you can still goto heaven.  And the most dangerous lie is that you can feelsafe and secure, even while you continue to enjoy your sins. Here’s the truth to replace that lie.  Hebrews 10 says ifyou deliberately keep on sinning, no sacrifice for sins is left,but only judgment and raging fire that will consume the enemiesof God!

           Now eternal security is a hot debate today.  So let meclarify from the start—I personally embrace eternal securitydoctrine, as long as it requires holiness and perseveringto the end.  But most eternal security preachers refuse todemand holiness.  They say, you can sin as much as youplease, and you’ll still go to heaven, because you’reeternally secure, you’re safe.  But I say, be holy. Without holiness, no one will see the Lord.  In Jesusname I rebuke any preacher out there, who intentionally oraccidentally, by argument or omission, lets people think they cantrifle with sin, wallow in it, and still go to heaven.  Youpreachers are working for the devil himself. 

 

Just imaginea young man, who thinks he’s eternally secure, and saved andgoing to heaven, when he’s really going to hell.  Hewallows in his sins, and delays repentance, because you told himholiness was optional.  But then he’s shocked on theday of judgment, when Jesus says, I never knew you.  Departfrom me you evildoers.  For that young man, false assuranceof salvation is the most dangerous lie in existence.  Nowhow can we preach eternal security properly, without givingpeople false assurance that they’re saved, when they’rereally not saved?  By saying, be holy.  Withoutholiness, no one will see the Lord.  

 

Mosteternal security preachers do what I call “ScriptureNullification.”  They use the half of the Bible theylike, to nullify the half of the Bible they don’t like. If I read scripture “x”, they say, “Well thatverse can’t be true because of scripture “y.” They use one scripture they like, to nullify and brush asideanother scripture they dislike.  This is scripturenullification.  Shouldn’t we instead try to find atheological model which incorporates both the scriptures we likeand the ones we don’t?  I propose such a model in mybook, which I believe sustains all the scriptures on both sidesof the eternal security debate, without just nullifying thedifficult half.  If you want to read a balanced approach tothis, write us and get a copy of this book you’re hearing meteach from. 

 

But fornow, let’s just read a few scriptures.  I can’tconvince anybody with my own arguments, so let’s just readthe scriptures about apostasy (losing your salvation).  Ifany single one of these scriptures proves you can lose yoursalvation, then preachers who say “once saved, always saved,no matter how much you sin” don’t stand not against me;they stand against the Bible and against God. 

 

2 Tim 2says, If we disown Him, He will also disown us.[1]  Let me read thatagain.  If we disown Him, He will also disown us.  NowPaul wrote this to Timothy, so don’t say it was addressed tounbelievers. If we disown Him, He will also disown us.  Wow. 

 

Here’sanother one.  Romans 8 says, If you use your lives to dothe wrong things your sinful selves want, you will diespiritually.[2] Paul is writing to Christians here, saying if they sin, they willdie spiritually.  Let that sink in for a moment.  Ifyou use your lives to do the wrong things your sinful selveswant, you will die spiritually.  Wow. 

 

Here’sanother one out of 2nd Peter:   If theyhave escaped the corruption of the world by knowing ourLord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangledin it and overcome, they are worse off at the end thanthey were at the beginning.  It would have beenbetter for them not to have known the way of righteousness, thanto have known it and then to turn their backs on [it] … Ofthem the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to itsvomit,” and, “A sow that is washedgoes back to her wallowing in the mud.” [3]  Now this is veryplain.  Don’t twist it, just read it.  The Biblesays these people know Jesus.  He’s not talking aboutunbelievers here.  He says they know our Lord and SaviorJesus Christ, but are again entangled in the corruption of thisworld, and they end up in hell—worse off at the end thanthey were at the beginning.  Most eternal security preachersdescribe 2nd Peter as a “difficult passage.” But if you just read it plainly, it’s not difficult at all. 

 

Nowhere’s another “difficult passage,” from Hebrews6.  It is impossible for those who have once beenenlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, whohave shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted thegoodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, ifthey fall away, to be brought back to repentance...[4]  [Now he’stalking about Christians here.  These people lost theirsalvation, even after they “were enlightened, tasted theheavenly gift, shared in the Holy Spirit, tasted the goodness ofthe word of God and the powers of the coming age.”  You’vegot to do a lot of mental gymnastics to water down thisscripture.  I prefer to just read it and believe what itsays.  If they fall away, it’s impossible for them tobe brought back to repentance.  Wow.  That makes mefear God, and desire holiness.  But if you water it down, itmakes holiness optional, and promotes disobedience.  Don’tbelieve that lie of the devil, that you can sin as much as youwant, and still have eternal security.

 

Here’sanother one, from 2nd John.  Watch out thatyou do not lose what you have worked for,…Anyonewho…does not continue in the teaching of Christdoes not have God; whoever continues in the teachinghas both the Father and the Son.[5] [Watch out!  If you don’t continue in the teaching ofChrist, you don’t have God.] 

 

Here’sanother one out of 1 Corinthians 15:  By this gospel youare saved, if you hold firmly to the word Ipreached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.[6]  [Now he’stalking to believers here, who received the Gospel.  But hesays you’re only saved if you hold firmly to the wordthat was preached to you.  Otherwise, you have believed invain.  Do you know what it means to believe in vain?  Itmeans you believe the gospel, but then because you don’thold firmly to it, you believed for nothing.  

 

In theparable of the sower, Jesus says the seed that fell on rockyplaces is the man who hears the word and at oncereceives it with joy.  But since he has no root,he lasts only a short time. When trouble orpersecution comes because of the word, he quickly fallsaway.[7]  … Theybelieve for a while, but in the time of testing theyfall away.[8] [They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fallaway.  They fall away.  They fall away.  Don’tfall away from the faith.  Persevere until the end.  Jesussaid he who stands firm to the end will be saved.[9] 

 

I’llbe back with more scriptures in a minute, but let’s take ashort break. 

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Middle segment by Mark McWilliams…

Thanks Gordon.  He’ll be back injust a moment.  But first, do you know somebody who needs tohear today’s message?  If you call our toll-free numberin the next hour, 866-Obey-God, we’ll mail you a freecassette tape of today’s broadcast, which you can copy andgive to your friends.  All our tapes are copyable and free,but please remember we need your donations to stay on the air andto give away these free tapes.  So please pray and obey,then send us your best possible donation, after you receive yourfree cassette.  (Gordon:  Hey time out!  Ifit’s your first time calling us, no donation is required! Just call us!)  Our toll free number is 866-Obey-God,that’s 1-866-O-B-E-Y-G-O-D.  And please specifyyou’re requesting today’s program.  Do you believeAmerica needs to hear these messages?  If so, then we needyou to sponsor us, by joining the Persuader’s Club with amonthly pledge of just $15.  If you join thePersuader’s Club, we’ll also send you an autographedcopy of Gordon’s book that you’ve been hearing.  Justvisit our web-site at persuaders-club.com.  Or call us inthe next hour at 866-Obey-God.  Right now, let’s returnto Gordon James Klingenschmitt. 

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Teaching continued by Gordon JamesKlingenschmitt

Thanksagain, Mark.  Let’s read a few more scriptures onapostasy, or losing your salvation.  We list more than 50 ofthese in my book, but we can only read a few here. 

 

Here’sone out of 2 Chronicles 15.  I’m going to read it threetimes, slowly.  I want you to let this scripture sink intoyour heart.  The LORD is with you when you are with him. Ifyou seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, hewill forsake you.  Here it is again.  The LORD is withyou when you are with him. If you seek him, he will be found byyou, but if you forsake him, he will forsake you.  Now someof you eternal security preachers are getting angry right now,but I’m just reading your Bible out loud to you.  Let’sread it one more time.  The LORD is with you when you arewith him. If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if youforsake him, he will forsake you.  Wow. 

 

Here’sanother one.  Did you realize that the Jews lost theirsalvation?  Jesus said, ‘I tell you that thekingdom of God will be taken away from you and givento a people who will produce...fruit.”[10]  Now if the Jewscould lose their salvation, are you Gentiles so arrogant youthink you can’t lose your salvation too?  Do not bearrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the naturalbranches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternnessto those who fell, but kindness to you,provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, youalso will be cut off.[11]   Otherwise, you alsowill be cut off.   Wow. 

 

Here’sanother one out of Matthew 24.   At that time manywill turn away from the faith…the love of most will growcold, but he who stands firm to the end willbe saved.[12]  Perseverance is mandatory forsalvation.  If you don’t stand firm to the end, youwon’t be saved.  Many will turn away from the faith,losing their salvation.  Wow. 

 

Are yougetting something out of this?  Here’s another one from2 Peter 3.  be on your guard so that you may not…fallfrom your secure position.[13]  [Now is Peter saying they can’tfall from their secure position, or did he say, be on your guard,so that you may not…fall from your secure position?] 

 

And thewriter of Hebrews says, See to it, brothers,that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turnsaway from the living God.[14]  [He’s not writing to unbelievershere, he calls them brothers, saying, don’t turn away fromthe living God.  Why bother with all these warnings?  Whydidn’t he say, rest easy, you’re secure.  Youcan’t turn away from the living God.  The warnings arereal, people.  Don’t turn away from God.]

 

Nowhere’s a very clear statement from 1st Timothy 4.  The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandonthe faith…  Why does the Spirit clearly say thatsome will abandon the faith, if it’s not possible to abandonthe faith?  Now you can disagree with the Holy Spirit if youwant to, but the Spirit clearly says that some will abandon thefaith. 

 

Nowhere’s one from 1st Chronicles 28.  Ifyou seek [God], he will be found by you; but ifyou forsake him, he will reject you forever.[15]  Did you know thatif you forsake God, he will reject you forever?  Not justfor a little while, but forever.  If you forsake him, hewill reject you forever.  Wow.  I’m just readingthe Bible here, people.  If you forsake him, he will rejectyou forever. 

 

Nowhere’s some from Ezekiel 18 and 33.  Listen carefully. If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commitssin and does the same detestable things the wicked mandoes, will he live? None of the righteousthings he has done will be remembered. Because of theunfaithfulness he is guilty of, and because of the sinshe has committed, he will die.[16]…Ifa righteous man turns from his righteousnessand commits sin, he will die for it; becauseof the sin he has committed he will die.[17]…Therighteousness of the righteous man will not save himwhen he disobeys,…The righteous man, ifhe sins, will not be allowed to live because of hisformer righteousness.[18]Ifa righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, hewill die for it.[19]  Wow.  You know, that makes me fearGod, and desire holiness. 

 

Thoseare some hard scriptures.  Let me finish with a nicerone—one that supports real eternal security—the kindthat includes holiness.  1st John 5 says, Weknow that anyone born of God does not continue to sin;the one who was born of God keeps him safe,and the evil one cannot harm him.[20]  [This is real eternalsecurity—when God keeps you safe from your deadly sins. You’ve got to be saved from your deadly sins, not just fromhell.  Sanctification, not just fire insurance.] 

 

Nowthere’s a lot of preachers out there doing mental gymnasticsto try to avoid all these scriptures.  I’d rather justbelieve them, and read them plainly, the way they were intended. 

 

(Lower)“But they’re just talking about having less jewels inyour crown.” Says Pastor Loophole.  “They’renot talking about going to hell.” 

 

That’sa lie!  Jesus said, If anyone does not remainin me, he is like a branch that is thrownaway and withers; such branches are picked up, throwninto the fire and burned.[21]  If you don’t remain in Christ,you’ll be thrown away.  You won’t just get fewerjewels in your heavenly crown.  Jesus said you’ll bethrown into the fire and burned.  Read it for yourself inJohn 15. 

We’vegot to change our message everybody.  Instead of preaching,“Once you’re saved, you can sin as much as you please,and you’ll always be saved,” we’ve got to say,“Once you’re saved, persevere in holiness until theend, and you’ll always be saved.”  

 

(Higher)“So how do I know when I’ve crossed the line, and lostmy salvation?” asks Johnny Lukewarm.  But Johnny,you’ve already crossed the line, because you don’t fearGod enough to immediately repent.  If you’re walking insin right now, and you know about it, and you’re refusing torepent, you’ve already crossed the line.  You’realready going to hell, unless you immediately repent.

The onlysins that send you to hell are the ones you don’t forsake. If you want real security, fear God and forsake your deadly sins. Don’t wallow in your sins—that’s dangerous.  Theonly real safety comes with consistent holiness. 

 

           Now it’s true that God will never forsake his children. When God’s children occasionally sin, He doesn’tquickly forsake them, He patiently chastens them, because theLord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone heaccepts as a son.[22]  But if you continue to sin withoutrepentance, don’t deceive yourself, by thinking you’rea child of God: This is how we know who the children of Godare and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not dowhat is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does notlove his brother. [23]

 

(Lower)“Well those people were never really saved in the firstplace…”  says Pastor Loophole.  Butthat’s a cop-out.  Why didn’t they get saved inthe first place?  Whose fault is that?  It’s yourfault they didn’t get saved in the first place, because youtold them holiness was optional.  The reason they“weren’t saved in the first place” is clear: You told ‘em to just “accept Jesus as your Savior”instead of demanding they “whole-heartedly surrender to theLordship of Christ.”  They’ve never had a changeof governor!  They’ve always ruled their own hearts! Repentance was never mandated, so they never did it!  Theyread a shallow tract, said a quick prayer, believed they weresaved when the really weren’t, and they went on with theirworldly lifestyle.  That’s why they weren’t savedin the first place, because Pastor Loophole, you never demandedthey repent.  That’s why they went back into theworld—because you never demanded they leave it in the firstplace.

 

PastorLoophole, if you’re out there listening, here is God’sword to you, from Ezekiel 3.  When a righteousman turns from his righteousness and does evil…hewill die.  Since you did not warn him, he will diefor his sin. The righteous things he did will not beremembered, and I will hold you accountable for hisblood.[24]

PastorLoophole, and all you pastors out there, God holds youaccountable for their blood, if you don’t warn them toforsake their sins, and remain faithful to the end. 

 

And JohnnyLukewarm, if you’re out there listening, here is God’sword to you:  Continue to work out your salvation withfear and trembling.[25]Don’t die with unconfessed sin in your heart.  Yoursins will destroy you unless you forsake them all immediately. Always confess and forsake your sins, immediately, the instantyou notice them.  Never delay repentance for even 30seconds. 

Keepwatch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. Keepwatch, maintain holiness.  Keep your lamps full of oil. When the bridegroom returns suddenly, and you’re not ready,you’ll say, ‘Sir! Sir!...open the door for us!’ But Jesus will reply ‘I tell you the truth, I don’tknow you.’  Therefore keep watch, because you donot know the day or the hour.[26] 

 

Let’spray together.  Let’s get this right with God.  Wouldyou pray these words along with me, to God?  Go ahead andsay them out loud.  “Father in heaven, I return to youaggressively and I choose to remain close to you until I die. I’m so sorry I’ve sinned against you.  I want towork out my salvation with fear and trembling.  I choose tolove you forever, and persevere in holiness until the end.  Iforsake all my known sins.  And I renounce all thoseteachers who told me that holiness was optional.  God, Iinvite you to come and rule my heart, right now, and I commit topersevering in holiness until the end.  In Jesus mightyname, Amen.” 

 

Did youjust pray with me?  If you prayed with me, would you justraise your right hand?  Wherever you are, it’s OK. Just raise your right hand up to God, as a sign that you prayedwith me, and gave your heart back to Him.  Some of you arereceiving a physical healing in your bodies right now, asGod’s loving rulership takes over in your heart.  Butif you prayed with me, can I ask you to write to me and get acopy of this book you’re hearing me teach from?  I’vebeen very fortunate and blessed to have this book read andendorsed by people like C. Peter Wagner, and Professors Tony Campoloand Jon Mark Ruthven, and Pastors Ted Haggard and Floyd McClung,and Joy Dawson and Bill Hamon.  So you know it’strustworthy.  Now in our next broadcast we’re going totell you the secret to maintaining consistent holiness.  SoI hope you’ll tune in again next time.  Now I love youand I care about you.  So here’s Mark with moreinformation. 

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Closing trailer by Mark McWilliams… 

Thanks Gordon, and thanks everybody forlistening. Do you know somebody who needs to hear today’smessage?  If you call our toll-free number in the next hour,866-Obey-God, we’ll mail you a free cassette tape oftoday’s broadcast, which you can copy and give to yourfriends. All our tapes are copyable and free, but please rememberthat we need your donations to stay on the air and to give awaythese free tapes.  So please pray and obey God about howmuch these teachings are worth to you, and return to us your bestpossible gift after you receive your free cassette.  (Gordon: Hey time out!  If it’s your first time contacting us,no donation is required!  Just call us!)  Our toll freenumber is 866-Obey-God, that’s 1-866-O-B-E-Y-G-O-D,and please specify you’re requesting today’s program. Now do you believe America needs to hear these messages?  Ifso, we’re specifically asking you to join thePersuader’s Club, and to sponsor this radio broadcast with amonthly pledge of just $15.  If you join thePersuader’s Club as a monthly partner, we’ll send youan autographed copy of the book you’ve been hearing, writtenand taught by Gordon James Klingenschmitt, entitled,“License To Sin, The Number One Reason America Is Losing ItsMoral Foundation.”  Just visit our web-site atpersuaders-club.com.  That’s persuaders-club.com. It’s the monthly donations of our Persuader’s Clubpartners who keep this program on the air.  Now if you havecomments or questions about today’s broadcast, you can emailus at  “persuadetheworld@yahoo.com,” Or you canwrite to us.  Or you can always call us toll free, at866-Obey-God.  And if you remember, please tell us the callsign of the radio station you’re listening to.  May Godbless you, and thank you for supporting Persuade The WorldMinistries.  Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, wepersuade men. 

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<Manymore transcripts and free MP3 radio shows CLICK HERE>

 

 



[1]2 Tim 2:12 (NIV)

[2]Rom 8:13 (NCV)

[3]2 Pet 2:20-22 (NIV)

[4]Heb 6:4-6 (NIV)

[5]II Jn 1:8-9 (NIV)

[6]1 Cor 15:1-2 (NIV)

[7]Matt 13:20-21 (NIV)

[8]Luke 8:13 (NIV)

[9]Matt 10:22 (NIV)

[10] Matt 21:42-43 (NIV)

[11] Rom 11:19-22 (NIV)

[12] Matt 24:12-13 (NIV)

[13] 2 Pet 3:17 (NIV)

[14] Heb 3:12 (NIV)

[15] 1 Chr 28:9 (NIV)

[16] Ezek 18:24 (NIV)

[17] Ezek 18:26 (NIV)

[18] Ezek 33:12 (NIV)

[19] Ezek 33:18 (NIV)

[20] I Jn 5:18 (NIV)

[21] John 15:6 (NIV)

[22] Heb 12:6 (NIV)

[23] I Jn 3:10 (NIV)

[24] Ezek 3:20 (NIV)

[25] Phil 2:12 (NIV)

[26] See Matt 25:1-13(NIV)